Interview with Horace Smith - 27 April 1973
Interviewee: Horace Joseph Smith (1887-1976)
At 33 Seventh Street, Gawler, South Australia
[Please note: Most of the information in this interview we believe may not be correct. However, we are trying to disprove/prove the majority of this interview. Any evidence you may have regarding this would be greatly appreciated.]
The interview was tape-recorded and the following is a written copy of the tape. Those present were Alf Smith of Glandore, his son Graham Smith of Morphett Vale who directed questions to Horace. Others present but took no part were Mr and Mrs A W Edwards of Malvern and Mr and Mrs E Smith of Gawler at whose home the interview took place.
The persons asking and answering the questions are signified as follows:
H. - Horace
G. - Graham.
A. - Alf
G. Why was Henry deported?
H. Henry was deported for killing a rabbit. A keeper caught Henry killing the rabbit. The keeper claimed Henry had stolen the rabbit from another property. Now he didn't do that. You see, the rabbit used to come across the road from another property to his own property, go through the wire-netting and eat his cabbages, carrots and lettuces, so Henry set a snare, a wire snare, and he caught it. The keeper caught him. The keeper said he stole a rabbit from the Manor House. His deportation was arranged for stealing a rabbit from another property.
[The Lord of the Manor at Burghfield at the time was the Earl of Shrewsbury.
He owned BURGHFIELD MANOR HOUSE.
His name was HENRY JOHN CHETWYND-TALBOT.
He sold his Burghfield Estates in 1870.]
G. This was a big charge in those days. Who really pushed the charge?
H. Lord Burghley was away and when he came back he heard about it and wouldn't allow it. He arrange for a pardon but Henry said he was going to Australia, he wouldn't give in. Lord Burghley paid his fare out here I think and gave him money for when he landed here.
G. In other words, he wasn't deported?
H. No. He was never deported, he came out with freedom. [Proved: Henry came out under the Government scheme on board the "Adamant" with his new wife Susannah on 18 July 1865. He was not deported. He arrived in Australia on 15 October 1865]
G. He was on his way anyway so Lord Burghley paid his fare out here?
H. Yes. He was cleared of the case; he could have stopped in England, but he wanted to go to Australia.
G. We heard that it was Henry's grandmother or mother who pushed the case.
H. She pushed it to Lord Burghley.
A. She wanted to get rid of him.
H. No. She wanted him to stay.
G. What did your late son Eddie see when he visited the old house at Burghfield Common near Reading?
[Edward Charles "Eddie" Smith was Horace's born in Gawler, South Australia in 1924 and died in Ballarat, Victoria in 1955. He was in WW2 RAAF - enlisted 12 January 1943 and discharged 29 January 1946. I'm making an assumption here but perhaps he visited Burghfield Common during his WW2 deployment (1943 to 1946). General train stations at that time were Mortimer and Sulhamstead Abbotts.]
H. He got off a train and asked where to go, where the Manor House was, where the Smith-Burghley's lived. The Stationmaster said straight through there, but you can't go through it. Eddie said "How did the fellow get the Manor House?", and the Stationmaster said, "He fought for it". Eddie said "Then he'll have to fight me for it". Anyway, he went there and when he told them who he was, they got out a horse and coach for him. They gave him the red carpet treatment. Their name was SCRIVEN.
[The only evidence I can find of Smith's owning any substantial land around Burghfield Common is in a small village nearby called Thatcham. Smith's owned the Chamberhouse Mill from at least 1891 till 1965. The Chamberhouse Mill was worked up until the 21st January 1965 when the last tenant, Fred Smith passed away. The Chamberhouse mill is half a km from the Thatcham Train Station. At this stage I can't find out who owned the mill after Fred Smith but Scriven's did live in Thatcham.
[I have found a GEORGE SMITH marrying a SARAH SCRIVEN on 5 September 1803 at Thatcham, Berkshire, England].
[There were also SCRIBBANS in Bradfield. The only evidence of found of Burghleys is that Bucklebury in Bradfield used to be called Burghulbury]
G. That house used to be owned by the Smith-Burghleys?
E. Yes.
G. Well, how come the Scrivens have it now?
H. Well, he married a Smith-Burghley.
G. Your late brother Ern married twice; firstly to Olive Ide [True in 1907 and Olive died in 1952] and then to a scotch women [Ern married a lady named Gertrude Eleanor Sarre. She wasn't Scottish, she was born in South Australia as was her parents. She had been married to Harold Douglas Sammells. Her maiden name was Gertrude Eleanor Green].
H. You had to sit on the front verandah to have cup of tea. She blamed Ern for stealing her money. It was her daughter who was stealing her money. She kicked Ern out. Ern went to the Salvation Army Home out St. Georges way. Ern could play any musical instrument you can name. He used to play for the Goodwood Pensioners.
G. You told me the scotch woman had the family papers, and it was she who burnt them. Is that right?
H. She destroyed them.
G. Is she alive today?
H. I don't know.
G. Where did she last live?
H. Clarence Park. Her daughter sold her house, got the money and went to Scotland. She went into a Presbyterian home.
G. Do you know her name?
H. No.
G. Now Robert was your grandfather, Joseph's father, you probably never met him.
H. Robert never came out from England. [Proved correct].
G. Who did he marry and did he marry only once?
H. He married only once. [Proved correct]. His wife lived for a long time after he died. [Robert died 1895, his wife Lucy died 1900] I am trying to think of girl's name who looked after her. My dad [Joseph] wanted to pay her for what she did (the girl). He wanted her to come out to Australia, but she never came.
G. Was this Albert's [who is Albert? Do they mean George?] daughter?
H. Yes.
G. Did Albert ever come to Australia?
[Do they mean George, Robert's first son? or William, Robert's last son]
H. No. He was caught in the snow, was crippled and later died.
[Does this refer to George who was run over by a van going to London with furniture and broke his leg on 23 June 1869?]
G. You said before that a Smith married into the family somewhere, before Robert, whereabouts?
H. That was father's grandfather.
G. In other words, Robert's father?
H. Yes. He married a Smith. It was found out later that the "Smith" was high up in society than the Burghleys were. She was related to some "Lord" or something. She was tossed out. I don't know what her father did wrong.
G. Why do you think they took the name Smith-Burghley. As recognition of this or what?
[Never found any reference to Smith-Burghley in records. Only thing close is an Edward Burley-Smith (aged 27), a shorthand writer, who married Lucy Cordelia Robinson (aged 22) at Poplar, London whose father is Samuel Burley-Smith, a Baker. Edward was living at 29 Albion Road, Dalston and Lucy was at 530 Grosvenor Buildings. Her father was Albert Robinson, an architect. It is the only time records show these names.
Also found quite a few Burley-Smith's in America.
There are however, many with the last name Robert or Roberts.]
H. My grandfather [Robert] should have been Lord Burghley. He was the eldest in the family, but the second son took it on. They took the name Smith-Burghley. They name the first son Smith-Burghley.
G. Do you know his Christian name?
H. No. I was away from the age of 15 years to 21 years and I never knew much about that.
G. So those years when you could have been interested you were not home! Did the family talk much about the background?
H. Ern used to fish things.
G. Where do you think the disinheritance occurred?
H. Robert's father.
G. Why did it occur?
H. Because he married a Smith.
ROWLINSON DISCUSSION
G. You said that in 1962 a body was found in a concrete staircase in a London Hotel. Whose body was it?
H. That was mother's [Eliza Smith (nee Rowlinson)] brother. [Rowlinson?] [Eliza's only brother was Charles Rowlinson who died in Queensland. Her other brother William, I believe, didn't live long.
G. What was his name?
H. It was a common name but I have forgotten. He got his money from tin mining and cattle in Queensland.
[Eliza Rowlinson's brother Charles Rowlinson (Rowlingson on Ancestry.com record) arrived in Brisbane aboard "Darling Downs" from London on 5 November 1874 with his wife Jane (nee Glover) and 3 daughters Ellen, Eliza and Hannah. This might be him? She also had a brother William but can't trace him - I don't believe he lived long].
He went back to Scotland. What happened to his money I don't know. They said it's in Chancery, but Joseph Smith had Denny the lawyer and they had a go in Queensland Court in 1927. It was Denny and something. They had no trace of where he was or where he might have been living, so therefore the money stayed in Chancery. I had a go with Villeneuve Smith; he owed me money and I told him about the money in Chancery but he said there was none. It was too late.
[I believe Villeneuve Smith was a Barrister, not a relative]
G. What was the suspicion around the body in the concrete. Was he murdered?
H. Yes. He had 500 pounds in gold and being a Scotsman he had it wrapped in greaseproof paper. I believe when they found him they found a ticket to Aberdeen in Scotland. The other bloke had a ticket to Glasgow.
(I surmise there were two bodies found in the concrete).
G. Was he married at all?
H. No. Had had a message that his father was dying and he had to go back to Scotland. [His father William Rowlinson died in 1907]
G. Did he have any brothers come into Queensland with him?
H. Only two half brothers, but they never came away from England. [William Rowlinson married again and had one son named Arthur]. One of the blokes was head of the Railways at Birmingham.
G. Did the family feel that Annie, Albert's daughter, wrongly claimed inheritance money?
H. Well, I was away at the time.
G. Did the family really back her claim?
H. There was a letter sent from lawyers in Aberdeen saying something about 360 pounds to Joseph Smith, Robert Smith, Adelaide, Joseph Smith-Burghley. Dad made enquiries. If she got the money, it went to the Jehovah's Witnesses.
G. What money was that from?
H. From the sale of the place (in Aberdeen). It was sold to a Governor of South Australia. He bought the place.
[Sir Charles Malcolm Barclay-Harvey was Governor of SA from 1939-1944. He owned Dinnet House in Aberdeen, Scotland which he inherited in 1924 on some 12,000 hectares]. The castle was designed and built in 1890 but I've never found a link between Rowlinson's and the Castle. Malcolm Barclay-Harvey's father was James Charles who died in 1924.
Dinnet Castle on the River Dee is 39 miles from Aberdeen and was built as a shooting lodge for Charles H Wilson MP who purchased the estate from trustees of Marquis of Huntly.
"To the Manor Born" was filmed there.]
G. What place was this?
H. It was the Rowlinson place in Aberdeen.
G. Well, why didn't the son get the money?
H. He was dead. It was proved later when they recovered the body, as he had all his paper on him. The bloke from Glasgow had his papers too. But you see it was too late.
BACK TO SMITHS
G. Did Albert [William Smith had a daughter named Annie Sarah Smith] have any sons or daughters besides Annie?
H. Yes, just one, a son who was Stationmaster at Langleys in Wales
[It was the William's son Henry Albert Smith that moved to Langley Marish, Buckinghamshire and worked for the Port Railway Company - found in 1911 Census].
No, there was a sister too. She used to look after her grandmother. She died before World War II.
[William had many children but Mabel Smith died in 1936 and never married.]
A. Annie called herself Burghley.
[Annie Sarah Smith changed her name to Marjorie Burghlea-Smith when she was in Australia visiting. She died at Parkside Mental Hospital in 1963]
H. She changed her name to Burghley.
[Annie Sarah Smith changed her name to Marjorie Burghlea-Smith when she was in Australia visiting. She died at Parkside Mental Hospital in 1963]
G. What did Albert call himself in England?
H. Smith-Burghley but I think they all changed their names too.
G. Did Albert live in the Burghley Common area?
H. He lived in one of the farms around the Manor House. He used to carry the mail for the Post Office when he got caught in the snow. He was never any good after.
[One of Robert's son was named Charles Henry Smith who died at age 21 and never moved out of home. Could this be him?].
G. When did Annie die and where did she die?
[She died at Parkside Mental Hospital in 1963].
H. I don't know.
G. The general consensus is she died in Glenside
[Yes, Parkside Mental Hospital in 1963].
H. I don't know. Edie might be able to tell you that.
[Edward Charles Smith his son, died in 1955!]
G. How old was she compared with the rest of you?
H. If she was living now, she would be 88.
[This would mean she was born in 1915. She was born in 1883!]
G. A Lord Burghley visited Australia around about the first World War and Henry presented him with a walking stick. Is that right?
[Lord Burghley visited many states of Australia - 1943 and 1933?]
H. That's correct.
G. Do you remember where he stopped in Adelaide?
H. No.
G. Did you ever meet him?
H. No. This was when I was up north. Edie might know.
[Edward Charles Smith his son, died in 1955!]
G. Did the family put on a show for him?
H. Not as far as I know. There was a Lord Burghley two years ago came looking for his relations. He was thrown off a horse and broke his neck (In Queensland).
[In 1953 Lord Burghley's relative Lady Violet Dorothea Bromley-Wilson died in Queensland]
[Never found any evidence of a Lord Burghley being thrown off a horse and breaking his neck. In 1939 he fell off his horse in England and broke a tendon in his heel. In 1939 Lady Burghley fell off her horse in England and broke a collar bone.]
G. Did this earlier chap visit Leicester Street?
H. I don't know. I wasn't home at the time. Ruby used to have a lot of papers, I don't know if she has them now.
DORIS EDWARDS EXPLAINS THAT SHE LOOKS AFTER RUBY'S POSSESSIONS AND THAT THEY ARE NOT THERE.
G. Besides Reading in Berkshire, was there any other place in England that was mentioned by your father?
H. No, only Sulhamstead.
G. Your late father [Joseph] was married in Sulhamstead. [Correct = Sulhamstead Abbotts, Berkshire, England]
H. I thought he was married at St. George Cathedral in Reading.
I EXPLAINED THE MARRIAGE CERTIFICATE HELD BY DOREEN PALMER.
G. What was Eliza doing in the Reading Area?
H. She was a nurse and when she was 14 she went to London from Aberdeen [Incorrect]. She had a Mrs Baker who took a liking to her. She married a Colonel Baker from India and when his time was up, instead of going back to England, he came here to Adelaide. They bought a place on Clifton Terrace. You go to Hyde Park Road where the creek runs through where the "ten falls" area.
[Is he referring to Sir William Erskine Baker (1808-1881) who was a senior British Indian Army Officer who became Military Secretary to the India Office. He was born in Scotland. \
I can't find him living in Adelaide.
He was living in London in 1871 with his wife Frances G Baker.]
A. What was the name of the racehorse trailer down Semaphore?
H. Mattson.
A. He came out on the same boat didn't he?
H. Yes. Hogbens came on the same boat too.
G. How much older than Joseph was Henry?
H. A couple of years. [Actually 12 years!]
NEERIM, VICTORIA, AUSTRALIA
H. A relation of Dad's came out. He died at Wild Horse Creek in Victoria. [Wild House Creek is near Mount Beauty in Victoria]. Henry Dore got Henry to go over to Victoria to take land in Gippsland.
[Henry Smith, Joseph's brother did go to live in Neerim, Gippsland.]
[Henry Dore, their cousin did live in Neerim with his wife Sarah Ann Bird. They married in 1894 in Victoria. In 1901 Henry Dore had 174 acres at Neerim].
[Horatio Dore Smith died in 1927 at a mill when a log rolled on him and killed him instantly in Neerim.]
G. Your grandfather Robert married a Dore. Is that right?
[Correct - Lucy Dore]
H. Yes. There was another one who went to New Zealand. HARD TO UNDERSTAND. SOMETHING LIKE. I don't know where but maybe in the South Island. HARD TO UNDERSTAND. Another relation came here and put up the front fence for us in Leicester Street. He went away. He said he would become a Jackaroo. I don't remember seeing him anymore.
G. Do you know where he came from?
H. No.
G. It would appear a number of the family came out here.
H. Yes.
G. Were they all Smiths?
H. No, they were Dores' and King. King was a relation of the Dores'. He settled in Gippsland near Sale.
[Can't find any relation of King]
A. Did your eldest brother Robert [Robert Stewart Smith]
H. No, the Sergeants came from there (Roberts' wife's people)
[Robert married Agnes Jessie Sergeant - Her family came from Sandhurst, Sandright, Victoria]
They (Robert and Aggie) had a son [John Stewart Smith] and a daughter [Linda Lillian Smith]. The son was John. John worked for the Gawler Council. He only has one son. He is Ross Smith the Victorian footballer who played for St. Kilda. When I saw Ross on TV, I said if you put a double blue guernsey on him, he is the spitting image of his father. [John Stewart Smith had two sons, Donald Stewart Smith and John Robert Smith. I can’t find either of them playing football. I can find no relationship between us and Ross Smith the Victorian footballer.]
A. Did George play for Sturts?
H. Yes. Charlie played for Sturts. Dad played for Sturts. I played for Sturts too. Len never played. Len and I couldn't get off enough because we were in the Railways.
G. Where are Joseph and Eliza buried?
H. West Terrace Cemetery.
[Flinders, Path 10, Site 4, West Terrace Cemetery, Adelaide, South Australia, Australia]
G. Is the grave well marked? What lot number?
H. Number three row. I saw them buried but haven't been there lately. Mum was buried in number four row. Bob was buried in number four row. Joseph, Henry and Jane were buried in number three row. My mother died [Eliza Smith] of blood poisoning at child birth. Us boys used to take flowers to the grave.
A. Where did you go when you lost your mother?
H. I went to Wickhams at McLaren Flat till I was thirteen years old.
[This was Horace's cousin's place. His cousin was Beatrice Smith who married Walter Horace Whitham. They lived at McLaren Flat].
Len [Leonard Rowlinson Smith] went to Shanks at Aldgate. I worked on the farm at Wickhams carting barley etc. Hard labour!
G. Do you remember any neighbours of Henrys at Sellicks?
H. Leakens.
HORACE THEN DESCRIBES A HOLIDAY AT SELLICKS AND THE FUN OR CHASING A PIG IN STRAW, RIDING CALVES ETC.
A. Henry used to look after the horses didn't he?
H. Yes, for John Hill and Co. Horatio [Horatio Dore Smith], has two sons who joined the police force
[We know one son named Herbert Henry Horatio Smith did join the Police Force in Melbourne. There was another brother named Robert George Smith]. They were both Detective Sergeants [No, Constables], one of the sons played for Geelong in Victoria.
G. You said before that Henry attended the Church of England at Sellicks.
H. Yes, and then he joined St. Augustines Church in Adelaide. When Mother died the church never helped us. Dad was a Conservative. We had Jenkins (CANNOT FOLLOW THIS SECTION). When mother died Dad took it bad. Two doors down old Tom Price the (?) member was the only one who helped us, especially Mrs Price.
A. Is that when your Dad had a bit of a stroke; after she died?
H. Yes, paralysed his left arm. Masoocy (DON"T KNOW SPELLING) in Hindley Street, Adelaide, the Frenchman made Dad right. Charged him nothing either.
G. How long before Joseph arrived in Adelaide did Henry arrive here?
H. Two years. Henry came down to meet him in a bullock dray and a big black horse called "Ted". Of course he had his wife's luggage too. His intended wife was there too. He (Henry) wasn't married when he came out .
[Incorrect].
He married this women called "Love" (Surname). [Correct]. He was engaged to his woman before he left England but she chucked him up. But the sister said, "I am not chucking him up, I'll marry him", so she came out. She came on the Hespirides with Mum and Dad. One of the Loves came out with one of the English teams and came to our place; that's the only thing I know about the Loves. Henry had these children: Kate, Jane, Beatrice, Elizabeth, Horatio and William. 6 children
G. Did Henry live to ripe old age at Sellicks and then come up to Leicester Street?
H. No. He went to Wild Horse Creek in Gippsland. He had a farm over there. Jane went over and brought him back and he lived with us from then on.
[Correct - Henry lived at Neerim South from 1900 to 1915]
A. Which of Jane's brother's used to be a miner?
H. Horatio. He used to work a gold mine on the property.
A. He must have gone to Cooper Pedy at some stage as I can remember Jane showed me an opal cockle that her brother sent her.
[Referring to Horatio Dore Smith born 1876 and died 1927 when a log slipped and rolled on Horatio at Gunn's mill at Crossover]
G. Where did Henry land in South Australia?
H. Port Adelaide.
[Correct]
G. Did he visit Interstate first?
H. No, he came straight to Adelaide. He didn't have the money for that. He bought land at Sellicks either with the Leakens or the Jenkinsons or the McRaes.
[Incorrect].
Land was only 2/- an acre. He bought it from the South Australian Company.
[Incorrect. He bought from Pengilly and it cost 16 pounds].
HORACE THEN DESCRIBES PRICES AND SALE OF LAND IN THE SELLICKS AREAS.
G. The money Annie claimed came from the Rowlinson side, didn't it?
H. Yes. She had no right to claim it.
G. It has been widely believed the claim was against the Burghley side.
H. Burghley never sent money over here.
G. He disowned them?
H. Well, he did and he didn't, but when I was born [1887] a Joseph Burghley was a minister who left a house and he was a godfather to Joseph (Horace's father).
He called him Jerry. He sent a gold watch from England for Joseph and the Reverend Erskine [Eliza was working for a Reverend Erskine in English Census of 1871] who married a Smith-Burghley wrote to Mum and told her to call me Horace.
[Incorrect - Reverend Thomas Erskine married Emmeline Augusta Adeane on 8 April 1856]
HARD TO UNDERSTAND - REFERS TO GODPARENTS.
The Reverend Joseph Burghley became Bishop of Berkshire. [Never found a Reverend Joseph Burghley or/as a Bishop of Berkshire]
G. Was he related to the family?
H. I think so. He was a Burghley. After Mum died, the church lent no hand to the family. The Reverend McCullogh (Spelling?) from the Baptist Union came around and did all sorts of things for us. That's when Dad joined the Baptists.
A. You were at Leicester Street when your Mother died?
H. Yes.
G. Can you recall your Mother talking much about her side of the family?
H. What she went through she kept to herself.
G. She had a rough trot?
H. Yes, so did the Mother and grandmother.
G. Did they come from Aberdeen?
[Can't find any reference to them coming from Aberdeen. They came from Pampisford in Cambridgeshire]
H. I don't know. I never heard. I don't think Dad or Mother were interested, but Mother's brother in the railways at Birmingham used to write to Mother.
[Eliza Rowlinson had two brothers - Charles Rowlinson 1844-1920 and died in Queensland and William Rowlinson 1854 - ? - I think William didn't live long. Can't find any evidence of a brother in the railways at Birmingham]
G. Have you got any family letters or information apart from photographs?
H. Ern had all the letters concerning Dad and they were passed on to him via Lucy and Charlie.
G. Was "Stamford" ever mentioned?
H. No.
G. Can you remember anything about a pantrymaid or a kitchenmaid or parlourmaid?
H. Annie was a pantrymaid in England. Grandma Dore was a parlourmaid or kitchenmaid.
[Yes, Lucy Dore was a parlourmaid in Reading]
G. Would it be the great grandmother nee Smith.
H. No, it was the Dore.
G. She was a French Jewess.
H. Yes. She cleared out of England before they got their heads chopped off.
A. What were Joseph's horses names? There was Sarahgambie.
H. Yes.
G. You said Joseph introduced a line of fowls to Australia.
G. Yes. He got them from England. Halesbury ducks, Black Orpington Sussex fowls.
A. Indian game?
H. No. He imported Fox Terrior dogs. He had a champion dog called Sparks - a savage dog.
BREAK IN TAPE. HORACE DESCRIBES EDDIES VISIT TO ABERDEEN.
H. Eddie visited Scots Church in Aberdeen, the old Rowlinson house and all that.
HORACE DESCRIBES ACTIVITIES OF CHURCH SERVICE.
G. Did Eddie visit any of the Rowlinson family in Aberdeen?
H. There was no family left.
End.
At 33 Seventh Street, Gawler, South Australia
[Please note: Most of the information in this interview we believe may not be correct. However, we are trying to disprove/prove the majority of this interview. Any evidence you may have regarding this would be greatly appreciated.]
The interview was tape-recorded and the following is a written copy of the tape. Those present were Alf Smith of Glandore, his son Graham Smith of Morphett Vale who directed questions to Horace. Others present but took no part were Mr and Mrs A W Edwards of Malvern and Mr and Mrs E Smith of Gawler at whose home the interview took place.
The persons asking and answering the questions are signified as follows:
H. - Horace
G. - Graham.
A. - Alf
G. Why was Henry deported?
H. Henry was deported for killing a rabbit. A keeper caught Henry killing the rabbit. The keeper claimed Henry had stolen the rabbit from another property. Now he didn't do that. You see, the rabbit used to come across the road from another property to his own property, go through the wire-netting and eat his cabbages, carrots and lettuces, so Henry set a snare, a wire snare, and he caught it. The keeper caught him. The keeper said he stole a rabbit from the Manor House. His deportation was arranged for stealing a rabbit from another property.
[The Lord of the Manor at Burghfield at the time was the Earl of Shrewsbury.
He owned BURGHFIELD MANOR HOUSE.
His name was HENRY JOHN CHETWYND-TALBOT.
He sold his Burghfield Estates in 1870.]
G. This was a big charge in those days. Who really pushed the charge?
H. Lord Burghley was away and when he came back he heard about it and wouldn't allow it. He arrange for a pardon but Henry said he was going to Australia, he wouldn't give in. Lord Burghley paid his fare out here I think and gave him money for when he landed here.
G. In other words, he wasn't deported?
H. No. He was never deported, he came out with freedom. [Proved: Henry came out under the Government scheme on board the "Adamant" with his new wife Susannah on 18 July 1865. He was not deported. He arrived in Australia on 15 October 1865]
G. He was on his way anyway so Lord Burghley paid his fare out here?
H. Yes. He was cleared of the case; he could have stopped in England, but he wanted to go to Australia.
G. We heard that it was Henry's grandmother or mother who pushed the case.
H. She pushed it to Lord Burghley.
A. She wanted to get rid of him.
H. No. She wanted him to stay.
G. What did your late son Eddie see when he visited the old house at Burghfield Common near Reading?
[Edward Charles "Eddie" Smith was Horace's born in Gawler, South Australia in 1924 and died in Ballarat, Victoria in 1955. He was in WW2 RAAF - enlisted 12 January 1943 and discharged 29 January 1946. I'm making an assumption here but perhaps he visited Burghfield Common during his WW2 deployment (1943 to 1946). General train stations at that time were Mortimer and Sulhamstead Abbotts.]
H. He got off a train and asked where to go, where the Manor House was, where the Smith-Burghley's lived. The Stationmaster said straight through there, but you can't go through it. Eddie said "How did the fellow get the Manor House?", and the Stationmaster said, "He fought for it". Eddie said "Then he'll have to fight me for it". Anyway, he went there and when he told them who he was, they got out a horse and coach for him. They gave him the red carpet treatment. Their name was SCRIVEN.
[The only evidence I can find of Smith's owning any substantial land around Burghfield Common is in a small village nearby called Thatcham. Smith's owned the Chamberhouse Mill from at least 1891 till 1965. The Chamberhouse Mill was worked up until the 21st January 1965 when the last tenant, Fred Smith passed away. The Chamberhouse mill is half a km from the Thatcham Train Station. At this stage I can't find out who owned the mill after Fred Smith but Scriven's did live in Thatcham.
[I have found a GEORGE SMITH marrying a SARAH SCRIVEN on 5 September 1803 at Thatcham, Berkshire, England].
[There were also SCRIBBANS in Bradfield. The only evidence of found of Burghleys is that Bucklebury in Bradfield used to be called Burghulbury]
G. That house used to be owned by the Smith-Burghleys?
E. Yes.
G. Well, how come the Scrivens have it now?
H. Well, he married a Smith-Burghley.
G. Your late brother Ern married twice; firstly to Olive Ide [True in 1907 and Olive died in 1952] and then to a scotch women [Ern married a lady named Gertrude Eleanor Sarre. She wasn't Scottish, she was born in South Australia as was her parents. She had been married to Harold Douglas Sammells. Her maiden name was Gertrude Eleanor Green].
H. You had to sit on the front verandah to have cup of tea. She blamed Ern for stealing her money. It was her daughter who was stealing her money. She kicked Ern out. Ern went to the Salvation Army Home out St. Georges way. Ern could play any musical instrument you can name. He used to play for the Goodwood Pensioners.
 |
| Photo of Ernest Smith playing the harmonica |
G. You told me the scotch woman had the family papers, and it was she who burnt them. Is that right?
H. She destroyed them.
G. Is she alive today?
H. I don't know.
G. Where did she last live?
H. Clarence Park. Her daughter sold her house, got the money and went to Scotland. She went into a Presbyterian home.
G. Do you know her name?
H. No.
G. Now Robert was your grandfather, Joseph's father, you probably never met him.
H. Robert never came out from England. [Proved correct].
G. Who did he marry and did he marry only once?
H. He married only once. [Proved correct]. His wife lived for a long time after he died. [Robert died 1895, his wife Lucy died 1900] I am trying to think of girl's name who looked after her. My dad [Joseph] wanted to pay her for what she did (the girl). He wanted her to come out to Australia, but she never came.
G. Was this Albert's [who is Albert? Do they mean George?] daughter?
H. Yes.
G. Did Albert ever come to Australia?
[Do they mean George, Robert's first son? or William, Robert's last son]
H. No. He was caught in the snow, was crippled and later died.
[Does this refer to George who was run over by a van going to London with furniture and broke his leg on 23 June 1869?]
G. You said before that a Smith married into the family somewhere, before Robert, whereabouts?
H. That was father's grandfather.
G. In other words, Robert's father?
H. Yes. He married a Smith. It was found out later that the "Smith" was high up in society than the Burghleys were. She was related to some "Lord" or something. She was tossed out. I don't know what her father did wrong.
G. Why do you think they took the name Smith-Burghley. As recognition of this or what?
[Never found any reference to Smith-Burghley in records. Only thing close is an Edward Burley-Smith (aged 27), a shorthand writer, who married Lucy Cordelia Robinson (aged 22) at Poplar, London whose father is Samuel Burley-Smith, a Baker. Edward was living at 29 Albion Road, Dalston and Lucy was at 530 Grosvenor Buildings. Her father was Albert Robinson, an architect. It is the only time records show these names.
Also found quite a few Burley-Smith's in America.
There are however, many with the last name Robert or Roberts.]
H. My grandfather [Robert] should have been Lord Burghley. He was the eldest in the family, but the second son took it on. They took the name Smith-Burghley. They name the first son Smith-Burghley.
G. Do you know his Christian name?
H. No. I was away from the age of 15 years to 21 years and I never knew much about that.
G. So those years when you could have been interested you were not home! Did the family talk much about the background?
H. Ern used to fish things.
G. Where do you think the disinheritance occurred?
H. Robert's father.
G. Why did it occur?
H. Because he married a Smith.
ROWLINSON DISCUSSION
G. You said that in 1962 a body was found in a concrete staircase in a London Hotel. Whose body was it?
H. That was mother's [Eliza Smith (nee Rowlinson)] brother. [Rowlinson?] [Eliza's only brother was Charles Rowlinson who died in Queensland. Her other brother William, I believe, didn't live long.
G. What was his name?
H. It was a common name but I have forgotten. He got his money from tin mining and cattle in Queensland.
[Eliza Rowlinson's brother Charles Rowlinson (Rowlingson on Ancestry.com record) arrived in Brisbane aboard "Darling Downs" from London on 5 November 1874 with his wife Jane (nee Glover) and 3 daughters Ellen, Eliza and Hannah. This might be him? She also had a brother William but can't trace him - I don't believe he lived long].
He went back to Scotland. What happened to his money I don't know. They said it's in Chancery, but Joseph Smith had Denny the lawyer and they had a go in Queensland Court in 1927. It was Denny and something. They had no trace of where he was or where he might have been living, so therefore the money stayed in Chancery. I had a go with Villeneuve Smith; he owed me money and I told him about the money in Chancery but he said there was none. It was too late.
[I believe Villeneuve Smith was a Barrister, not a relative]
G. What was the suspicion around the body in the concrete. Was he murdered?
H. Yes. He had 500 pounds in gold and being a Scotsman he had it wrapped in greaseproof paper. I believe when they found him they found a ticket to Aberdeen in Scotland. The other bloke had a ticket to Glasgow.
(I surmise there were two bodies found in the concrete).
G. Was he married at all?
H. No. Had had a message that his father was dying and he had to go back to Scotland. [His father William Rowlinson died in 1907]
G. Did he have any brothers come into Queensland with him?
H. Only two half brothers, but they never came away from England. [William Rowlinson married again and had one son named Arthur]. One of the blokes was head of the Railways at Birmingham.
G. Did the family feel that Annie, Albert's daughter, wrongly claimed inheritance money?
H. Well, I was away at the time.
G. Did the family really back her claim?
H. There was a letter sent from lawyers in Aberdeen saying something about 360 pounds to Joseph Smith, Robert Smith, Adelaide, Joseph Smith-Burghley. Dad made enquiries. If she got the money, it went to the Jehovah's Witnesses.
G. What money was that from?
H. From the sale of the place (in Aberdeen). It was sold to a Governor of South Australia. He bought the place.
[Sir Charles Malcolm Barclay-Harvey was Governor of SA from 1939-1944. He owned Dinnet House in Aberdeen, Scotland which he inherited in 1924 on some 12,000 hectares]. The castle was designed and built in 1890 but I've never found a link between Rowlinson's and the Castle. Malcolm Barclay-Harvey's father was James Charles who died in 1924.
Dinnet Castle on the River Dee is 39 miles from Aberdeen and was built as a shooting lodge for Charles H Wilson MP who purchased the estate from trustees of Marquis of Huntly.
"To the Manor Born" was filmed there.]
G. What place was this?
H. It was the Rowlinson place in Aberdeen.
G. Well, why didn't the son get the money?
H. He was dead. It was proved later when they recovered the body, as he had all his paper on him. The bloke from Glasgow had his papers too. But you see it was too late.
BACK TO SMITHS
G. Did Albert [William Smith had a daughter named Annie Sarah Smith] have any sons or daughters besides Annie?
H. Yes, just one, a son who was Stationmaster at Langleys in Wales
[It was the William's son Henry Albert Smith that moved to Langley Marish, Buckinghamshire and worked for the Port Railway Company - found in 1911 Census].
No, there was a sister too. She used to look after her grandmother. She died before World War II.
[William had many children but Mabel Smith died in 1936 and never married.]
A. Annie called herself Burghley.
[Annie Sarah Smith changed her name to Marjorie Burghlea-Smith when she was in Australia visiting. She died at Parkside Mental Hospital in 1963]
H. She changed her name to Burghley.
[Annie Sarah Smith changed her name to Marjorie Burghlea-Smith when she was in Australia visiting. She died at Parkside Mental Hospital in 1963]
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Annie Sarah Smith who changed her name to Marjorie Burghlea-Smith
Photo taken in 1953
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G. What did Albert call himself in England?
H. Smith-Burghley but I think they all changed their names too.
G. Did Albert live in the Burghley Common area?
H. He lived in one of the farms around the Manor House. He used to carry the mail for the Post Office when he got caught in the snow. He was never any good after.
[One of Robert's son was named Charles Henry Smith who died at age 21 and never moved out of home. Could this be him?].
G. When did Annie die and where did she die?
[She died at Parkside Mental Hospital in 1963].
H. I don't know.
G. The general consensus is she died in Glenside
[Yes, Parkside Mental Hospital in 1963].
H. I don't know. Edie might be able to tell you that.
[Edward Charles Smith his son, died in 1955!]
G. How old was she compared with the rest of you?
H. If she was living now, she would be 88.
[This would mean she was born in 1915. She was born in 1883!]
G. A Lord Burghley visited Australia around about the first World War and Henry presented him with a walking stick. Is that right?
[Lord Burghley visited many states of Australia - 1943 and 1933?]
H. That's correct.
G. Do you remember where he stopped in Adelaide?
H. No.
G. Did you ever meet him?
H. No. This was when I was up north. Edie might know.
[Edward Charles Smith his son, died in 1955!]
G. Did the family put on a show for him?
H. Not as far as I know. There was a Lord Burghley two years ago came looking for his relations. He was thrown off a horse and broke his neck (In Queensland).
[In 1953 Lord Burghley's relative Lady Violet Dorothea Bromley-Wilson died in Queensland]
[Never found any evidence of a Lord Burghley being thrown off a horse and breaking his neck. In 1939 he fell off his horse in England and broke a tendon in his heel. In 1939 Lady Burghley fell off her horse in England and broke a collar bone.]
G. Did this earlier chap visit Leicester Street?
H. I don't know. I wasn't home at the time. Ruby used to have a lot of papers, I don't know if she has them now.
DORIS EDWARDS EXPLAINS THAT SHE LOOKS AFTER RUBY'S POSSESSIONS AND THAT THEY ARE NOT THERE.
G. Besides Reading in Berkshire, was there any other place in England that was mentioned by your father?
H. No, only Sulhamstead.
G. Your late father [Joseph] was married in Sulhamstead. [Correct = Sulhamstead Abbotts, Berkshire, England]
H. I thought he was married at St. George Cathedral in Reading.
I EXPLAINED THE MARRIAGE CERTIFICATE HELD BY DOREEN PALMER.
G. What was Eliza doing in the Reading Area?
H. She was a nurse and when she was 14 she went to London from Aberdeen [Incorrect]. She had a Mrs Baker who took a liking to her. She married a Colonel Baker from India and when his time was up, instead of going back to England, he came here to Adelaide. They bought a place on Clifton Terrace. You go to Hyde Park Road where the creek runs through where the "ten falls" area.
[Is he referring to Sir William Erskine Baker (1808-1881) who was a senior British Indian Army Officer who became Military Secretary to the India Office. He was born in Scotland. \
I can't find him living in Adelaide.
He was living in London in 1871 with his wife Frances G Baker.]
A. What was the name of the racehorse trailer down Semaphore?
H. Mattson.
A. He came out on the same boat didn't he?
H. Yes. Hogbens came on the same boat too.
G. How much older than Joseph was Henry?
H. A couple of years. [Actually 12 years!]
NEERIM, VICTORIA, AUSTRALIA
H. A relation of Dad's came out. He died at Wild Horse Creek in Victoria. [Wild House Creek is near Mount Beauty in Victoria]. Henry Dore got Henry to go over to Victoria to take land in Gippsland.
[Henry Smith, Joseph's brother did go to live in Neerim, Gippsland.]
[Henry Dore, their cousin did live in Neerim with his wife Sarah Ann Bird. They married in 1894 in Victoria. In 1901 Henry Dore had 174 acres at Neerim].
[Horatio Dore Smith died in 1927 at a mill when a log rolled on him and killed him instantly in Neerim.]
G. Your grandfather Robert married a Dore. Is that right?
[Correct - Lucy Dore]
H. Yes. There was another one who went to New Zealand. HARD TO UNDERSTAND. SOMETHING LIKE. I don't know where but maybe in the South Island. HARD TO UNDERSTAND. Another relation came here and put up the front fence for us in Leicester Street. He went away. He said he would become a Jackaroo. I don't remember seeing him anymore.
G. Do you know where he came from?
H. No.
G. It would appear a number of the family came out here.
H. Yes.
G. Were they all Smiths?
H. No, they were Dores' and King. King was a relation of the Dores'. He settled in Gippsland near Sale.
[Can't find any relation of King]
A. Did your eldest brother Robert [Robert Stewart Smith]
H. No, the Sergeants came from there (Roberts' wife's people)
[Robert married Agnes Jessie Sergeant - Her family came from Sandhurst, Sandright, Victoria]
They (Robert and Aggie) had a son [John Stewart Smith] and a daughter [Linda Lillian Smith]. The son was John. John worked for the Gawler Council. He only has one son. He is Ross Smith the Victorian footballer who played for St. Kilda. When I saw Ross on TV, I said if you put a double blue guernsey on him, he is the spitting image of his father. [John Stewart Smith had two sons, Donald Stewart Smith and John Robert Smith. I can’t find either of them playing football. I can find no relationship between us and Ross Smith the Victorian footballer.]
A. Did George play for Sturts?
H. Yes. Charlie played for Sturts. Dad played for Sturts. I played for Sturts too. Len never played. Len and I couldn't get off enough because we were in the Railways.
G. Where are Joseph and Eliza buried?
H. West Terrace Cemetery.
[Flinders, Path 10, Site 4, West Terrace Cemetery, Adelaide, South Australia, Australia]
G. Is the grave well marked? What lot number?
H. Number three row. I saw them buried but haven't been there lately. Mum was buried in number four row. Bob was buried in number four row. Joseph, Henry and Jane were buried in number three row. My mother died [Eliza Smith] of blood poisoning at child birth. Us boys used to take flowers to the grave.
A. Where did you go when you lost your mother?
H. I went to Wickhams at McLaren Flat till I was thirteen years old.
[This was Horace's cousin's place. His cousin was Beatrice Smith who married Walter Horace Whitham. They lived at McLaren Flat].
Len [Leonard Rowlinson Smith] went to Shanks at Aldgate. I worked on the farm at Wickhams carting barley etc. Hard labour!
G. Do you remember any neighbours of Henrys at Sellicks?
H. Leakens.
HORACE THEN DESCRIBES A HOLIDAY AT SELLICKS AND THE FUN OR CHASING A PIG IN STRAW, RIDING CALVES ETC.
A. Henry used to look after the horses didn't he?
H. Yes, for John Hill and Co. Horatio [Horatio Dore Smith], has two sons who joined the police force
[We know one son named Herbert Henry Horatio Smith did join the Police Force in Melbourne. There was another brother named Robert George Smith]. They were both Detective Sergeants [No, Constables], one of the sons played for Geelong in Victoria.
G. You said before that Henry attended the Church of England at Sellicks.
H. Yes, and then he joined St. Augustines Church in Adelaide. When Mother died the church never helped us. Dad was a Conservative. We had Jenkins (CANNOT FOLLOW THIS SECTION). When mother died Dad took it bad. Two doors down old Tom Price the (?) member was the only one who helped us, especially Mrs Price.
A. Is that when your Dad had a bit of a stroke; after she died?
H. Yes, paralysed his left arm. Masoocy (DON"T KNOW SPELLING) in Hindley Street, Adelaide, the Frenchman made Dad right. Charged him nothing either.
G. How long before Joseph arrived in Adelaide did Henry arrive here?
H. Two years. Henry came down to meet him in a bullock dray and a big black horse called "Ted". Of course he had his wife's luggage too. His intended wife was there too. He (Henry) wasn't married when he came out .
[Incorrect].
He married this women called "Love" (Surname). [Correct]. He was engaged to his woman before he left England but she chucked him up. But the sister said, "I am not chucking him up, I'll marry him", so she came out. She came on the Hespirides with Mum and Dad. One of the Loves came out with one of the English teams and came to our place; that's the only thing I know about the Loves. Henry had these children: Kate, Jane, Beatrice, Elizabeth, Horatio and William. 6 children
G. Did Henry live to ripe old age at Sellicks and then come up to Leicester Street?
H. No. He went to Wild Horse Creek in Gippsland. He had a farm over there. Jane went over and brought him back and he lived with us from then on.
[Correct - Henry lived at Neerim South from 1900 to 1915]
A. Which of Jane's brother's used to be a miner?
H. Horatio. He used to work a gold mine on the property.
A. He must have gone to Cooper Pedy at some stage as I can remember Jane showed me an opal cockle that her brother sent her.
[Referring to Horatio Dore Smith born 1876 and died 1927 when a log slipped and rolled on Horatio at Gunn's mill at Crossover]
G. Where did Henry land in South Australia?
H. Port Adelaide.
[Correct]
G. Did he visit Interstate first?
H. No, he came straight to Adelaide. He didn't have the money for that. He bought land at Sellicks either with the Leakens or the Jenkinsons or the McRaes.
[Incorrect].
Land was only 2/- an acre. He bought it from the South Australian Company.
[Incorrect. He bought from Pengilly and it cost 16 pounds].
HORACE THEN DESCRIBES PRICES AND SALE OF LAND IN THE SELLICKS AREAS.
G. The money Annie claimed came from the Rowlinson side, didn't it?
H. Yes. She had no right to claim it.
G. It has been widely believed the claim was against the Burghley side.
H. Burghley never sent money over here.
G. He disowned them?
H. Well, he did and he didn't, but when I was born [1887] a Joseph Burghley was a minister who left a house and he was a godfather to Joseph (Horace's father).
He called him Jerry. He sent a gold watch from England for Joseph and the Reverend Erskine [Eliza was working for a Reverend Erskine in English Census of 1871] who married a Smith-Burghley wrote to Mum and told her to call me Horace.
[Incorrect - Reverend Thomas Erskine married Emmeline Augusta Adeane on 8 April 1856]
HARD TO UNDERSTAND - REFERS TO GODPARENTS.
The Reverend Joseph Burghley became Bishop of Berkshire. [Never found a Reverend Joseph Burghley or/as a Bishop of Berkshire]
G. Was he related to the family?
H. I think so. He was a Burghley. After Mum died, the church lent no hand to the family. The Reverend McCullogh (Spelling?) from the Baptist Union came around and did all sorts of things for us. That's when Dad joined the Baptists.
A. You were at Leicester Street when your Mother died?
H. Yes.
G. Can you recall your Mother talking much about her side of the family?
H. What she went through she kept to herself.
G. She had a rough trot?
H. Yes, so did the Mother and grandmother.
G. Did they come from Aberdeen?
[Can't find any reference to them coming from Aberdeen. They came from Pampisford in Cambridgeshire]
H. I don't know. I never heard. I don't think Dad or Mother were interested, but Mother's brother in the railways at Birmingham used to write to Mother.
[Eliza Rowlinson had two brothers - Charles Rowlinson 1844-1920 and died in Queensland and William Rowlinson 1854 - ? - I think William didn't live long. Can't find any evidence of a brother in the railways at Birmingham]
G. Have you got any family letters or information apart from photographs?
H. Ern had all the letters concerning Dad and they were passed on to him via Lucy and Charlie.
G. Was "Stamford" ever mentioned?
H. No.
G. Can you remember anything about a pantrymaid or a kitchenmaid or parlourmaid?
H. Annie was a pantrymaid in England. Grandma Dore was a parlourmaid or kitchenmaid.
[Yes, Lucy Dore was a parlourmaid in Reading]
G. Would it be the great grandmother nee Smith.
H. No, it was the Dore.
G. She was a French Jewess.
H. Yes. She cleared out of England before they got their heads chopped off.
A. What were Joseph's horses names? There was Sarahgambie.
H. Yes.
G. You said Joseph introduced a line of fowls to Australia.
G. Yes. He got them from England. Halesbury ducks, Black Orpington Sussex fowls.
A. Indian game?
H. No. He imported Fox Terrior dogs. He had a champion dog called Sparks - a savage dog.
BREAK IN TAPE. HORACE DESCRIBES EDDIES VISIT TO ABERDEEN.
H. Eddie visited Scots Church in Aberdeen, the old Rowlinson house and all that.
HORACE DESCRIBES ACTIVITIES OF CHURCH SERVICE.
G. Did Eddie visit any of the Rowlinson family in Aberdeen?
H. There was no family left.
End.
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